Sexist Remarks

[-Possum-]

HI POO!

I *never* assume gender based on someone being R'ed. And I didn't before I knew any guys who had been (to my knowledge).

People assume men can't get breast cancer, or face domestic violence too. I know most people who have had all of these things are female, but it doesn't mean millions aren't men!

[callum]

I agree with Po. It's just a numbers thing. Most people assume a survivor is female because the numbers suggest they are more likely to be. This sort of thing happens in all walks of life.

[fightergirl]

It is a numbers thing Callum & po I agree, but that does not make it ok! Just like it would not be ok to say something bad about Irish people just because we are out numbered!!

[callum]

It is a numbers thing Callum & po I agree, but that does not make it ok! Just like it would not be ok to say something bad about Irish people just because we are out numbered!!

Very true, but not really sure how we can get that to change. If it's not something that has effected you, either directly or as a secondary, then it's not something that people really pay much attention to. Obviously we're all here because it has so we're more inclined to think twice about saying things or making assumptions, but most people wont do that. I think the thing is to try and find a way to make most people think twice, just not sure how to do it!

[fightergirl]

Well I think this is a great start! Hopefully this will make most people think twice! other than that the only thing we can do is contact a mod when someone does say something, or just remind them that there are male survivors! and just try keep awareness up that there are male survivors so it hopefully people will keep that in mind while posting!!

Anyone else have any idea's???

[Po]

I just remembered something (scary, isn't it?) this morning in regards to male survivors.

I once, not too long ago, was an advocate at the local RCC. During one of our training sessions, we had a Prosecutor from the DAs office as a "guest speaker." At the end of his time, there was a little Q&A session. Being the only other male in the room of 20 ppl, I asked him how many men seek legal justice through the courts (in other words, how many male survivors report what happened to them).

His answer pissed me off SO bad, I STILL don't know how I didn't get physical with him (and I'm one of those people who will hardly ever get physical). He said, "Oh, men can't be r*ped." Yes, he...a male prosecutor from the DAs office WITH MORE THAN A DECADE IN THE SAME DAs OFFICE...said that.

Let's just say, he ate his words right away.

[fightergirl]

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

That is CRAZY!!!! can't believe that!!!

But I am wondering if he was saying that in the eye's of the law they can't??? because in Ireland technically in the eye's of the law it is not seen as rape only sexual assault!!! I got very upset when I found that out!

[Po]

But I am wondering if he was saying that in the eye's of the law they can't??? because in Ireland technically in the eye's of the law it is not seen as rape only sexual assault!!! I got very upset when I found that out!

In Ireland, it's just SA? Not r*pe? Now THAT is a load of...well, maybe I shouldn't say, but you know what I mean.

Here in California, it is r*pe. And even when I got him to realize men can be r*ped, he said something along the lines of "Well, I guess gay men can be r*ped." Ya, I don't know if this guy was intentionally trying to piss me off, or if he was just stupid. Don't get me wrong, gay men can be assaulted as well, but how he said it, he made it sound like the only type of men that got assaulted were gay men.

[fightergirl]

Oh don't get me wrong I wasn't sticking up for him, I thought that might be the reason obviously not! I can't believe someone in that position could be so nieve and ... I'll stop there!!!

Yeah some of the laws in Ireland are a bit messed up!

[callum]

Trigger warning

Apparently my case was fairly important in getting it changed in Scotland. I was attacked in 2005 and it went to court in 2006. It was officially called sodomy then and tried as a form of indecent assault but all the police and procurator fiscal that I dealt with were up in arms and complained lots about it. A year later there were significant changes in the law in Scotland, which gave men the same recognition as women, along with including sending unwanted sexually explicit texts and e-mails as being a form of sexual assault and it is now the case that the woman (or man) takes drug and alcohol tests when it is reported in a bid to establish whether or not the woman (or man) was deemed to be in a fit state to give consent. Not great, but a lot better than it was.

Also, when I reported, the police didn't go as far as to say it never happened, but one of them did say he'd been in the police for 20 years and has never had to deal with a male victim that wasn't under the age of 12 before (I was 19 at the time). Everyone in the police was incredibly supportive to be fair.

Edited March 18, 2010 by callum

[jlandrith]

I'm sorry but I just don't see people here doing that to one another. Did I just miss something because I don't know of any post that has been specificlly bad or taken off because of one gender, race, ethnicity, etc. I am not sure what all the fuss is about. I just haven't seen this. Maybe I am reading the wrong post but it seems this is being made to be more than it is and kind of blown out of proportion. We are all survivors here. Some men think that about women. I just think we can be a little more understanding. I don't think anyone is out to get a particualar gender or race or what have you. Let's just all get along.

You may not have seen it, but I have and more than once. Perhaps you missed it because those postings didn't generalize one of the demographics to which you belong.

Thank you to Possum for standing up and speaking out.

[jlandrith]

they are not attacking men for being men

i know they arent, but it feels like it. i dont have a problem with the posts that make that clear. but there are posts where they complain or "attack" men in general. it does make me ashamed of my gender.

Yeah, even if it not meant to be hurtful, it still stings. It is really easy to say it is not a big deal or not meant that way when it isn't your demographic that is the one frequently not to be trusted or is scary.

It feels dismissive and minimizing when I hear that argument. If a male survivor feels like they are being judged or generalized based on their gender, then I believe they are perfectly well entitled to feel hurt and express that hurt without having it minimized.

Edited September 6, 2010 by jlandrith

[KindBrightFlame]

Hi, I have recently been thinking...

Posts have been removed because of racists tones. People saying that people of a certain ethnic group are all the same.

But why are posts allowed to stay up that say "men are all the same"?

These posts are very sexist, especially considering that we have many male members here, who contribute so much and are every bit as strong as the females, if not more.

Our male members have fought hard to overcome the taboo of being sexually abused as a guy. Only to come here and have people think that they are the same as other guys.

I am calling for an end to sexist remarks.

I would not be acceptable for someone to write that they don't trust any (picking a country out of a hat) indian people, because that is who abused them. A post containing that would be removed.

But so many posts group men together as rapists and people who can't control their sexual desires. These seem to slip through the net.

Please be aware that posts grouping men together as abusers is incredibly upsetting, not only to the male members but to the others who have male supporters who are incredible.

And board moderators, would it be possible to have a rule against posting these sexist remarks please?

Thank you,

Possum

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Every time I see a post that suggests all men are basically fighting every day to stifle their natural-born inner rapist, I am SO tempted to hit the report button. Instead, I argue with as much tact as I can muster. I understand how hard it is to see men as safe when all your experience stacks up against them, and that is why we have forums for the separate genders. Women should feel safe venting or struggling with the nature of men versus what happened to us, while men should feel safe just being here, being themselves.

[Archie]

It got so bad today I threw a massive wobbly. And that's not me. But I have REALLY had enough. Seriously.

[blackavar]

Hi, I have recently been thinking...

Posts have been removed because of racists tones. People saying that people of a certain ethnic group are all the same.

But why are posts allowed to stay up that say "men are all the same"?

These posts are very sexist, especially considering that we have many male members here, who contribute so much and are every bit as strong as the females, if not more.

Our male members have fought hard to overcome the taboo of being sexually abused as a guy. Only to come here and have people think that they are the same as other guys.

I am calling for an end to sexist remarks.

I would not be acceptable for someone to write that they don't trust any (picking a country out of a hat) indian people, because that is who abused them. A post containing that would be removed.

But so many posts group men together as rapists and people who can't control their sexual desires. These seem to slip through the net.

Please be aware that posts grouping men together as abusers is incredibly upsetting, not only to the male members but to the others who have male supporters who are incredible.

And board moderators, would it be possible to have a rule against posting these sexist remarks please?

Thank you,

Possum

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Every time I see a post that suggests all men are basically fighting every day to stifle their natural-born inner rapist, I am SO tempted to hit the report button. Instead, I argue with as much tact as I can muster. I understand how hard it is to see men as safe when all your experience stacks up against them, and that is why we have forums for the separate genders. Women should feel safe venting or struggling with the nature of men versus what happened to us, while men should feel safe just being here, being themselves.

Just a footnote here

Not only are not all men abusers, not all women are victims. The implication that women in abusive scenarios are survivors by default is not empowering, not a show of solidarity, not validating by any means, especially to those who have been abused by both genders. It is nothing but lazy stereotyping.

Women are abusers as well. Let's not assume that everyone on this site was hurt by a man.

[KindBrightFlame]

Just a footnote here

Not only are not all men abusers, not all women are victims. The implication that women in abusive scenarios are survivors by default is not empowering, not a show of solidarity, not validating by any means, especially to those who have been abused by both genders. It is nothing but lazy stereotyping.

Women are abusers as well. Let's not assume that everyone on this site was hurt by a man.

Fair enough footnote. I am in a position where I am able to take that fact for granted, but I suppose not everyone does.

The idea is to quit projecting personal experience onto everyone and try not to generalize. I think it is also handy to just stay on topic. If a thread is about rape culture and how men might justify their abusive actions toward women, I find it kind of rude when someone feels the need to pipe up and say "WELL YOU KNOW NOT ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS AND SOMETIMES WOMEN ARE, SO THERE." Yeah. I know. It's a topic worth discussing on a different thread, which I'd be happy to consider and participate in. There's room for everybody to be validated here without invalidating other people in the process. No one needs to shove.

[blackavar]

Just a footnote here

Not only are not all men abusers, not all women are victims. The implication that women in abusive scenarios are survivors by default is not empowering, not a show of solidarity, not validating by any means, especially to those who have been abused by both genders. It is nothing but lazy stereotyping.

Women are abusers as well. Let's not assume that everyone on this site was hurt by a man.

Fair enough footnote. I am in a position where I am able to take that fact for granted, but I suppose not everyone does.

The idea is to quit projecting personal experience onto everyone and try not to generalize. I think it is also handy to just stay on topic. If a thread is about rape culture and how men might justify their abusive actions toward women, I find it kind of rude when someone feels the need to pipe up and say "WELL YOU KNOW NOT ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS AND SOMETIMES WOMEN ARE, SO THERE." Yeah. I know. It's a topic worth discussing on a different thread, which I'd be happy to consider and participate in. There's room for everybody to be validated here without invalidating other people in the process. No one needs to shove.

I'd hope that people would have enough consideration to understand the context of a thread before making those kinds of remarks, but it does still happen. It's a sensitive issue either way, but there's no reason why each aspect of the topic can't be discussed in its place. If the thread is intended for a general audience, then the issue may be up for debate. If it's narrow in its focus (culture and its relationship to male perps justifiying their activities, for example), then obviously the responses would (or should) be accordingly.

[jlandrith]

Just a footnote here

Not only are not all men abusers, not all women are victims. The implication that women in abusive scenarios are survivors by default is not empowering, not a show of solidarity, not validating by any means, especially to those who have been abused by both genders. It is nothing but lazy stereotyping.

Women are abusers as well. Let's not assume that everyone on this site was hurt by a man.

Fair enough footnote. I am in a position where I am able to take that fact for granted, but I suppose not everyone does.

The idea is to quit projecting personal experience onto everyone and try not to generalize. I think it is also handy to just stay on topic. If a thread is about rape culture and how men might justify their abusive actions toward women, I find it kind of rude when someone feels the need to pipe up and say "WELL YOU KNOW NOT ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS AND SOMETIMES WOMEN ARE, SO THERE." Yeah. I know. It's a topic worth discussing on a different thread, which I'd be happy to consider and participate in. There's room for everybody to be validated here without invalidating other people in the process. No one needs to shove.

I'd hope that people would have enough consideration to understand the context of a thread before making those kinds of remarks, but it does still happen. It's a sensitive issue either way, but there's no reason why each aspect of the topic can't be discussed in its place. If the thread is intended for a general audience, then the issue may be up for debate. If it's narrow in its focus (culture and its relationship to male perps justifiying their activities, for example), then obviously the responses would (or should) be accordingly.

Exactly. There is a big difference between "I'm having trouble trusting men again" and "all men are miserable, rapist scumbags." The former is indicative of a survivor working through issues and the latter a hurtful generalization and projection onto all men, including male survivors and secondaries who don't deserve to be called rapists.

If someone is making obvious, hurtful generalizations (not working through issues) and the thread is out in the forum for access by both male and female survivors alike, then the generalizations CAN and SHOULD be refuted. If it is in the Women's Forum, then it is a clear violation of the TOS and a moderator will end up dealing with it.

Hurting is not an excuse to demonize, especially when those being demonized are far outnumbered and a very vulnerable minority in what is supposed to be a safe space for ALL survivors, not just those who are female. Bullying and generalizations are not healthy expressions of pain. If I see it, I'm calling it out or reporting it.

Is anyone gonna seriously sit idly by while a male survivor posts that all women are abusive, manipulative liars who just want to hurt men and other women? Really?! I've witnessed far too much callous and intentional secondary wounding at the hands of female survivors to just pretend it is okay any more. After witnessing a male survivor completely fall apart and recoil from his support network, and seriously consider hurting himself over the hatred he witnessed on another survivor network, I think it is time it is addressed head-on rather than excused or glossed over by those in the majority on survivor sites. It is easy to be cavalier when it is not your demographic being demonized on a constant basis. Does anyone ever wonder why so many men join and then disappear quickly? Or many never leave the discussions in the men's forum? Think about it - hard.

I highly doubt the same tolerance for generalizations would be granted if the genders were reversed.

Edited September 18, 2010 by jlandrith

[MidnightSunshine531]

Just a footnote here

Not only are not all men abusers, not all women are victims. The implication that women in abusive scenarios are survivors by default is not empowering, not a show of solidarity, not validating by any means, especially to those who have been abused by both genders. It is nothing but lazy stereotyping.

Women are abusers as well. Let's not assume that everyone on this site was hurt by a man.

Fair enough footnote. I am in a position where I am able to take that fact for granted, but I suppose not everyone does.

The idea is to quit projecting personal experience onto everyone and try not to generalize. I think it is also handy to just stay on topic. If a thread is about rape culture and how men might justify their abusive actions toward women, I find it kind of rude when someone feels the need to pipe up and say "WELL YOU KNOW NOT ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS AND SOMETIMES WOMEN ARE, SO THERE." Yeah. I know. It's a topic worth discussing on a different thread, which I'd be happy to consider and participate in. There's room for everybody to be validated here without invalidating other people in the process. No one needs to shove.

I'd hope that people would have enough consideration to understand the context of a thread before making those kinds of remarks, but it does still happen. It's a sensitive issue either way, but there's no reason why each aspect of the topic can't be discussed in its place. If the thread is intended for a general audience, then the issue may be up for debate. If it's narrow in its focus (culture and its relationship to male perps justifiying their activities, for example), then obviously the responses would (or should) be accordingly.

Exactly. There is a big difference between "I'm having trouble trusting men again" and "all men are miserable, rapist scumbags." The former is indicative of a survivor working through issues and the latter a hurtful generalization and projection onto all men, including male survivors and secondaries who don't deserve to be called rapists.

If someone is making obvious, hurtful generalizations (not working through issues) and the thread is out in the forum for access by both male and female survivors alike, then the generalizations CAN and SHOULD be refuted. If it is in the Women's Forum, then it is a clear violation of the TOS and a moderator will end up dealing with it.

Hurting is not an excuse to demonize, especially when those being demonized are far outnumbered and a very vulnerable minority in what is supposed to be a safe space for ALL survivors, not just those who are female. Bullying and generalizations are not healthy expressions of pain. If I see it, I'm calling it out or reporting it.

Is anyone gonna seriously sit idly by while a male survivor posts that all women are abusive, manipulative liars who just want to hurt women? Really?! I've witnessed far too much callous and intentional secondary wounding at the hands of female survivors to just pretend it is okay any more. After witnessing a male survivor completely fall apart and recoil from his support network, and seriously consider hurting himself over the hatred he witnessed on another survivor network, I think it is time it is addressed head-on rather than excused or glossed over by those in the majority on survivor sites. It is easy to be cavalier when it is not your demographic being demonized on a constant basis. Does anyone ever wonder why so many men join and then disappear quickly? Or many never leave the discussions in the men's forum? Think about it - hard.

I highly doubt the same tolerance for generalizations would be granted if the genders were reversed.

i completely agree with you. well said, very well said.

[annieonymous]

this is a long thread and i don't have time to read through all the replies, so i'm sorry if this has already been suggested.

i deeply sympathize that these comments can be hurtful to males on the site and they shouldn't have to see that stuff and be triggered by it in a space which is supposed to be safe.

then again, i think it's understandable that some people (both male and female) who were SA'd by males to struggle with these negative views of males. it may inhibit their healing if they have to inhibit expressing these feelings.

so as a compromise, maybe a specific thread in the "aftermath" forum should be reserved for people who feel compelled to vent these types of remarks about males.. then anybody who thinks they might be triggered by such comments would just steer clear of that thread. and on the rest of the forums/threads those remarks would be banned, and posts like that would be moved to the appropriate thread.

perhaps the thread could be called "fear/mistrust of males." it should also be pinned so it doesn't get lost.

on another note... i don't know if comparing the anti-male remarks to racism is an accurate analogy in all cases (depends on what exactly is said). although it's total BS to say that "all men are the same", and this is definately an anti-male statement that is both delusional and offensive, it is reasonable to be more suspicious of males than females, because males commit the vast majority of sexual assault and sexual abuse, and (according to a 1998 scottish research survey) 36% of teen boys and young men said they might rape a woman under certain conditions (i.e. she's his wife, she's a "sl*t", he would get away with it). they also commit 88% of homicides. so statements like "there are tons of awful men out there" or "trusting men is dangerous" or "men are more violent than women" are not really sexist but just a statement about the current reality in our society. it's not an inevitable reality. i don't think males are biologically wired to be more violent than females but are socialized to be more violent. so i love men but i hate masculine gender socialization which teaches men to act like bullies not just to women but to other men. (in fact 2 out of 3 homicide victims are men killed by other men.) so because of the higher rates of male-perpetrated violence towards females and males, i think it's reasonable for people, not just females, to be suspicious and afraid. all of my close male friends have admitted to me that men scare the sh*t out of them. i am actually less scared of men then my boyfriend is, and he's a big dude! i think my other point is that it's not just females who might want to vent about males, but there are also males who want to vent about them.

the source for that statistic about the percent of males willing to rape:

Burton, S , Kitzinger, J. with Kelly, L & Regan, L (1998) Young People's Attitudes Toward Violence Sex and Relationships - Executive Summary, Zero Tolerance Charitable Trust. Accessed 28 Oct 2010

<http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/upfiles/young%20peoples%20attitude%2085.pdf>

Edited November 7, 2010 by annieonymous

[jlandrith]

this is a long thread and i don't have time to read through all the replies, so i'm sorry if this has already been suggested.

i deeply sympathize that these comments can be hurtful to males on the site and they shouldn't have to see that stuff and be triggered by it in a space which is supposed to be safe.

then again, i think it's understandable that some people (both male and female) who were SA'd by males to struggle with these negative views of males. it may inhibit their healing if they have to inhibit expressing these feelings.

so as a compromise, maybe a specific thread in the "aftermath" forum should be reserved for people who feel compelled to vent these types of remarks about males.. then anybody who thinks they might be triggered by such comments would just steer clear of that thread. and on the rest of the forums/threads those remarks would be banned, and posts like that would be moved to the appropriate thread.

perhaps the thread could be called "fear/mistrust of males." it should also be pinned so it doesn't get lost.

on another note... i don't know if comparing the anti-male remarks to racism is an accurate analogy in all cases (depends on what exactly is said). although it's total BS to say that "all men are the same", and this is definately an anti-male statement that is both delusional and offensive, it is reasonable to be more suspicious of males than females, because males commit the vast majority of sexual assault and sexual abuse, and (according to a 1998 scottish research survey) 36% of teen boys and young men said they might rape a woman under certain conditions (i.e. she's his wife, she's a "sl*t", he would get away with it). they also commit 88% of homicides. so statements like "there are tons of awful men out there" or "trusting men is dangerous" or "men are more violent than women" are not really sexist but just a statement about the current reality in our society. it's not an inevitable reality. i don't think males are biologically wired to be more violent than females but are socialized to be more violent. so i love men but i hate masculine gender socialization which teaches men to act like bullies not just to women but to other men. (in fact 2 out of 3 homicide victims are men killed by other men.) so because of the higher rates of male-perpetrated violence towards females and males, i think it's reasonable for people, not just females, to be suspicious and afraid. all of my close male friends have admitted to me that men scare the sh*t out of them. i am actually less scared of men then my boyfriend is, and he's a big dude!

the source for that statistic about the percent of males willing to rape:

Burton, S , Kitzinger, J. with Kelly, L & Regan, L (1998) Young People's Attitudes Toward Violence Sex and Relationships - Executive Summary, Zero Tolerance Charitable Trust. Accessed 28 Oct 2010

<http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/upfiles/young%20peoples%20attitude%2085.pdf>

The problem that started the thread was not people working through fear or mistrust, but the blatantly biased comments that put all males in the same box. Some of the things previously said were very ugly. There is no space for generalizations anywhere on the site as they clearly violate the TOS. I don't think that anyone was saying that people should not be able to hold discussions about their fears or trust issues with certain demographics. Those types of discussions have been and are still occurring without issue.

The problem was, and still is, hurtful and disallowed generalizations. Saying, "I am having trouble feeling safe around X, Y or Z" is one thing. Saying, "all men are potential rapists who are prone to kill others" is quite another. The former was not the issue here, but instead, the latter.

As far as statistics go, they are useful for crunching numbers. However, individuals commit rapes and murders not "men" and "women" in general. Further, for those of us abused by women, it can be pretty invalidating to have such numbers thrown in our faces as justification for hating us.

Edited November 7, 2010 by jlandrith

[MidnightSunshine531]

perhaps the thread could be called "fear/mistrust of males." it should also be pinned so it doesn't get lost.

so as a compromise, maybe a specific thread in the "aftermath" forum should be reserved for people who feel compelled to vent these types of remarks about males.. then anybody who thinks they might be triggered by such comments would just steer clear of that thread. and on the rest of the forums/threads those remarks would be banned, and posts like that would be moved to the appropriate thread.

how would you feel if a whole site of male survivors made a thread about "fear/mistrust of females"?

how would you(meaning everyone here) feel if a whole group of people were stereotyping you as a potential perpetrator just because of your gender?

it'd make you feel pretty singled out and terrible, yes?

*rapists* rape. it is NOT a gender specific crime, on the perpetrating side OR the victim/survivor side.

[annieonymous]

how would you feel if a whole site of male survivors made a thread about "fear/mistrust of females"?

how would you(meaning everyone here) feel if a whole group of people were stereotyping you as a potential perpetrator just because of your gender?

it'd make you feel pretty singled out and terrible, yes?

*rapists* rape. it is NOT a gender specific crime, on the perpetrating side OR the victim/survivor side.

statistically speaking, it's illogical to be more afraid/mistrustful of females than of males. but most people's fears aren't based on statistical probabilities, they're based on our own experiences. and there are those of us who were abused only by a female(s), or by both a male(s) and a female(s).

i'm sure there are people, male and female, who do deal with fear/mistrust of females. fewer than deal with fear/mistrust of males, but enough that it can warrant its own thread.

so how about two pinned threads. one "fear/mistrust of males" and the other "fear/mistrust of females." i think that's actually reasonable.

Edited November 7, 2010 by annieonymous

[MidnightSunshine531]

hmmmmmmmmm. i can kinda see your point, i dont necessarily agree with your reasoning but thats ok. we dont have to agree. thank you for respecting my opinion though, thats very appreciated!

so how about two pinned threads. one "fear/mistrust of males" and the other "fear/mistrust of females." i think that's actually reasonable.

i think that *could* be reasonable, i just would want the mods to make sure and watch those threads very carefully because i wouldnt want both of those threads to turn into nothing but "i hate men" and "i hate women" rants when it really should be about working through that fear and mistrust..

does that make sense?

maybe it would be a better idea to make a more general thread about working through fears about certain groups of people in general? i just dont want anyone to feel singled out because thats not fair. and like i said before i think the mods would have to keep a close eye on a thread like that so it doesnt turn into anything but hate speech instead of actually working on that fear/mistrust/etc.

i dont know, im kinda rambling so sorry about that. this is a complicated issue, no easy answers. i just think that its not right to paint any one group of people as potential perpetrators because the thing is, anyone can abuse/assault. like i said before rape/sa is not a gender specific crime and should not be treated like it is.. thats all.

x

Edited November 7, 2010 by MidnightSunshine531

[dodo]

Hi

I have read through all that is posted in this thread - and I will make sure other mods take a look at all your suggestions.

karen

[jlandrith]

i dont know, im kinda rambling so sorry about that. this is a complicated issue, no easy answers. i just think that its not right to paint any one group of people as potential perpetrators because the thing is, anyone can abuse/assault. like i said before rape/sa is not a gender specific crime and should not be treated like it is.. thats all.

x

Exactly. The statistics being used in this thread to justify fear based on gender can also be used to refute those same fears. While the majority of reported rapes have been committed by men, the vast majority of men statistically have not committed any rapes or assaults, so the argument that they should be feared falls flat on its face when presented from that angle. Hmmm, I wonder why those stats are never quoted. Could it be that they don't support the fear argument?

Further, a Kaiser Permanente study shows that for men abused as children, 40% of the perps were women, and a recent study in Scotland showed a massive rise in reporting by males with regard to domestic violence committed by females. I wonder what kind of justifications could be made based on those stats. Also, given how unwilling most men have been to report abuse - and especially so at the hands of women, the real numbers are undoubtedly much higher. In addition, the fact that most states are only now beginning to seriously charge and prosecute female rapists and pedophiles, I have a suspicion that the stats are going to even up with regard to the gender of perps in the coming years. Do not be confused, women are not committing sexual and domestic violence at higher rates than ever, they are just finally being held accountable to it and law enforcement/advocacy groups are finally taking it seriously.

I wrote about this on my blog and it was republished recently on the feminist blog ethecofem:

• http://ethecofem.com/2010/11/04/on-genderi...istics-defense/
• http://jameslandrith.com/content/view/3693/79/

We can use numbers to say a lot things. Why does it always seem that excusing bias, bigotry and fear seems to be the fallback though?

Edited November 7, 2010 by jlandrith

[annieonymous]

Exactly. The statistics being used in this thread to justify fear based on gender can also be used to refute those same fears. While the majority of reported rapes have been committed by men, the vast majority of men statistically have not committed any rapes or assaults, so the argument that they should be feared falls flat on its face when presented from that angle. Hmmm, I wonder why those stats are never quoted. Could it be that they don't support the fear argument?

i agree that most males are not rapists or abusers or murderers. i was just saying they're much more likely to be rapists and abusers, and murderers, than females. so it's not unreasonable for females and for males to be more cautious of males relative to females.

[jlandrith]

Exactly. The statistics being used in this thread to justify fear based on gender can also be used to refute those same fears. While the majority of reported rapes have been committed by men, the vast majority of men statistically have not committed any rapes or assaults, so the argument that they should be feared falls flat on its face when presented from that angle. Hmmm, I wonder why those stats are never quoted. Could it be that they don't support the fear argument?

i agree that most males are not rapists or abusers or murderers. i was just saying they're much more likely to be rapists and abusers, and murderers, than females. so it's not unreasonable for females and for males to be more cautious of males relative to females.

More likely based on some forms of statistical collection. However, given that the vast majority of violence committed by women against men is not prosecuted, let alone reported, you might find the real amount of female perpetrated violence to be closer to the levels of male perpetrated violence. I know far too many men and women who were hurt by women to support the argument that men should be feared based on statistics. Further, some agencies will call a sexual assault committed by a man - rape, while calling the same act committed by a woman - sexual assault or indecent liberties or another term that clearly downplays the seriousness of the crime and pads the numbers to ensure that women are not appropriately represented in the numbers. Some law enforcement organizations and advocacy agencies openly admit that they don't consider women capable of rape and that only men can be rapists. Gee, what effect do you think such biases have on the accuracy and integrity of the data from which your statistics derive?

Statistics, like any form of number crunching, are susceptible to human and institutional bias. The bias toward reclassifying rapes committed by women is well known, but changing due to vocal opposition by male and female survivors of female predators. With regard to domestic violence, agencies are beginning to do a much better of job of classifying female violence equally with that of men, rather than systemically reclassifying it based on political expediency.

Just as easily as you conclude that it is reasonable to fear men more than women, one could make the claim that since statistics show that the overwhelmingly vast majority of men are not rapists, that it is unreasonable to be afraid of men on that basis.

See how easy it is to use the similar statistics to support both sides of a point?

Given that statistics ultimately show that it is rapists who commit rape - not whole classifications of gender, I fear rapists, rather than whole segments of society who happen to be innocent of rape.

Of course, given that more and more women are being convicted of raping men (like me) and sexually abusing children, committing statutory rapes in schools/churches and perpetuating domestic violence, perhaps I should rethink my abhorrence of bias and scapegoating...

Edited November 7, 2010 by jlandrith

[AstridB]

Many times I don't even know who are male and female here because we can't see gender. I know of a few males and I really value their input and encouragement in the group. They are great members and I hope they always feel comfortable here.

I think when victims make sexist comments it's because they are angry or scared, but mainly trying to protect themselves. It isn't healthy, and we should all feel encouraged to help that person heal and realize their sexism is holding them back from regaining a positive outlook on life.

[jlandrith]

Many times I don't even know who are male and female here because we can't see gender. I know of a few males and I really value their input and encouragement in the group. They are great members and I hope they always feel comfortable here.

As I am further along in my healing, I can understand many of the sexist comments and have empathy for those making them. However, as a survivor of a female rapist I have problems with being lumped into the "perp" box by people who share the same gender as my own rapist. I know that some people may not understand how I can empathize while simultaneously feeling invalidated or accused on the basis of gender, but I think that most survivors here can understand why it would be problematic. It may be harder for those in the majority here to understand it, but I do know that many try and that means a great deal.

I won't lie, sexist remarks are very hurtful - especially given that they tend to come from those who share the same gender as my own rapist. I understand it, but I don't have to condone it as I know it would not be condoned openly if the genders were switched.

I think when victims make sexist comments it's because they are angry or scared, but mainly trying to protect themselves. It isn't healthy, and we should all feel encouraged to help that person heal and realize their sexism is holding them back from regaining a positive outlook on life.

That is exactly how I see it. Recognize the underlying cause, gently point it out as a symptom and help the survivor to transcend the sexism. Let's not use statistical games to justify sexism and further wound other survivors as if they are guilty by association. Instead, let's help the survivors know that sexism can be overcome, rather than excusing it on the basis of shared gender.

Edited November 7, 2010 by jlandrith