wow, that was a huge Fraudean Slip on my part!! I had not realised I had posted the 'leave me alone' post. I wrote it then decided not to send it. Must have pressed wrong button. Now I am shaking and exposed, because I guess it is the real truth. I have had enough.
Karen
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Guest Message by DevFuse
Empathy, Sympathy Or Directive When Supporting You Choose
Started by
brobbitt
, Feb 18 2006 04:33 PM
63 replies to this topic
#17
CJ
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- Contributing Member
- 3,355 posts
I'm so glam I pee glitter
Posted 19 February 2006 - 08:45 AM
Karen im exactly the same, its really nothing to be ashamed of. 
#18
brobbitt
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- Secondary Survivors
- 524 posts
Posted 19 February 2006 - 08:54 AM
Hi Karen,
"wow, that was a huge Fraudean Slip on my part!! I had not realised I had posted the 'leave me alone' post. I wrote it then decided not to send it. Must have pressed wrong button. Now I am shaking and exposed, because I guess it is the real truth. I have had enough."
Saying it as you feel it is never wrong and its so ok to feel how you feel. Looking back over the mails three responding members have agreed with you (they have all felt and feel that way too)...I definately feel this way on many occassions and that is the most human feeling of all sometimes.
If I am in my study and my door is shut, then the family know what is going on and leave me to work it out...
Of all the insights, your's was the one that was 'most human'... there is great healing in this Karen, empathy means someone else helping you to identify and work on the feelings you experience, they make you think differently :o(...
maybe this was a self revelation for you, that means you can now begin working on that area with your therapist..or with the people on this site...you won't receive judgement here Karen...hopefully you wont be to hard on yourself, you so don't deserve that...
Brian
"wow, that was a huge Fraudean Slip on my part!! I had not realised I had posted the 'leave me alone' post. I wrote it then decided not to send it. Must have pressed wrong button. Now I am shaking and exposed, because I guess it is the real truth. I have had enough."
Saying it as you feel it is never wrong and its so ok to feel how you feel. Looking back over the mails three responding members have agreed with you (they have all felt and feel that way too)...I definately feel this way on many occassions and that is the most human feeling of all sometimes.
If I am in my study and my door is shut, then the family know what is going on and leave me to work it out...
Of all the insights, your's was the one that was 'most human'... there is great healing in this Karen, empathy means someone else helping you to identify and work on the feelings you experience, they make you think differently :o(...
maybe this was a self revelation for you, that means you can now begin working on that area with your therapist..or with the people on this site...you won't receive judgement here Karen...hopefully you wont be to hard on yourself, you so don't deserve that...
Brian
#19
Donna
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- Contributing Member
- 9,723 posts
Liver Schmiver
Posted 19 February 2006 - 01:13 PM
QUOTE
Cant do this because there is no room for manouvre, there is less space in the hole, in fact they are both trapped and now the initial survivor has the problem of the second one to deal with too and visa versa.
But yet there is room to hug the trapped survivor? In my own world and the hole I imagine there is room for the survivor that jumped down to help push out the trapped survivor. Then the now not trapped survivor becomes the empathic one and gives a hand to the sympathetic survivor that jumped down to give the hug which gave the trapped survivor enough strength to climb out.
Anyways, just my thoughts.
#20
brobbitt
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- Secondary Survivors
- 524 posts
Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:23 PM
Hi Donna
And valid thoughts as well!! because this is after all your world...
"But yet there is room to hug the trapped survivor? In my own world and the hole I imagine there is room for the survivor that jumped down to help push out the trapped survivor. Then the now not trapped survivor becomes the empathic one and gives a hand to the sympathetic survivor that jumped down to give the hug which gave the trapped survivor enough strength to climb out."
I wondered why someone would have to jump in to push the other out, only to be trapped themselves, bit like saying that the rescuer has to have experience of being trapped with the other person if they are to rescue them ...
If the initial passer by shows empathy then the journey out of the hole is quicker and only one person has ever been trapped...it would also mean a fantastic HUG at the top of the hole :o)
"Anyways, just my thoughts."
Hey, your thoughts are excellent and make me search myself for answers...so grateful for them#
Brian
And valid thoughts as well!! because this is after all your world...
"But yet there is room to hug the trapped survivor? In my own world and the hole I imagine there is room for the survivor that jumped down to help push out the trapped survivor. Then the now not trapped survivor becomes the empathic one and gives a hand to the sympathetic survivor that jumped down to give the hug which gave the trapped survivor enough strength to climb out."
I wondered why someone would have to jump in to push the other out, only to be trapped themselves, bit like saying that the rescuer has to have experience of being trapped with the other person if they are to rescue them ...
If the initial passer by shows empathy then the journey out of the hole is quicker and only one person has ever been trapped...it would also mean a fantastic HUG at the top of the hole :o)
"Anyways, just my thoughts.
"Hey, your thoughts are excellent and make me search myself for answers...so grateful for them#
Brian
#21
dodo
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- Newbie Support Team
- 17,378 posts
before the end
Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:58 PM
I wondered where trust came in all of this. If i was the survivor stuck in the hole then I would have to trust the passer by whether they were sympathetic, empathic or directive. Also for myself I would have to be honest enough to let the passerby know that I even needed any help. I would shout up 'no, Im fine no need to worry, bye!' and get rid of them quickly then continue my struggle. When in fact what I truely want is for them to drag me out, take me home, and look after me for the foreseeable future!! This is of course the exact opposite to what I said earlier. I do not know how to account for that.
karen
karen
#22
brobbitt
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- Secondary Survivors
- 524 posts
Posted 19 February 2006 - 04:09 PM
Hi Karen,
good points !
"I wondered where trust came in all of this. If i was the survivor stuck in the hole then I would have to trust the passer by whether they were sympathetic, empathic or directive."
Yes,you absloutely would, this is the main reason people stay in the hole trying to find a way out themselves (ongoing , stuckness) they understandibly find it difficult to trust or have noone to trust :o(
"Also for myself I would have to be honest enough to let the passerby know that I even needed any help. I would shout up 'no, Im fine no need to worry, bye!' and get rid of them quickly then continue my struggle."
Two causes for this generally.Firstly denial that they are actually in a hole even though they know that they are :o( Or a form of shame, they dont want to be seen in a hole, it will mean the mask slipping and they may be seen as weak (can;t have that when we have learned to always portrey the opposite).
"When in fact what I truely want is for them to drag me out, take me home, and look after me for the foreseeable future!!"
The empathic survivor will help you to drag yourself out and will be sure in the knowlege that you are strong enough to look after yourself for the foreseeable future. See the empathic survivor knows the strength you possessed prior to falling into the hole and are more than capable of looking after yourself :o)...
"This is of course the exact opposite to what I said earlier. I do not know how to account for that."
I'd account for it by the fact that empathy is the more scarey proposition and so when in a hole we tend to regress and miss the way we were looked after as children..our learned way of being and our most comfortable way of being is being looked after. We are all original and therefore you have the absoloute right to change your preference, for that is what empathy allows you to do :o)
Brian
good points !
"I wondered where trust came in all of this. If i was the survivor stuck in the hole then I would have to trust the passer by whether they were sympathetic, empathic or directive."
Yes,you absloutely would, this is the main reason people stay in the hole trying to find a way out themselves (ongoing , stuckness) they understandibly find it difficult to trust or have noone to trust :o(
"Also for myself I would have to be honest enough to let the passerby know that I even needed any help. I would shout up 'no, Im fine no need to worry, bye!' and get rid of them quickly then continue my struggle."
Two causes for this generally.Firstly denial that they are actually in a hole even though they know that they are :o( Or a form of shame, they dont want to be seen in a hole, it will mean the mask slipping and they may be seen as weak (can;t have that when we have learned to always portrey the opposite).
"When in fact what I truely want is for them to drag me out, take me home, and look after me for the foreseeable future!!"
The empathic survivor will help you to drag yourself out and will be sure in the knowlege that you are strong enough to look after yourself for the foreseeable future. See the empathic survivor knows the strength you possessed prior to falling into the hole and are more than capable of looking after yourself :o)...
"This is of course the exact opposite to what I said earlier. I do not know how to account for that."
I'd account for it by the fact that empathy is the more scarey proposition and so when in a hole we tend to regress and miss the way we were looked after as children..our learned way of being and our most comfortable way of being is being looked after. We are all original and therefore you have the absoloute right to change your preference, for that is what empathy allows you to do :o)
Brian
#23
foxy
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- Member
- 603 posts
Posted 10 May 2006 - 02:56 AM
How about... it's my hole and nobody is meant to notice me in it !! ...
#25
dodo
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- Newbie Support Team
- 17,378 posts
before the end
Posted 10 May 2006 - 05:21 AM
hehehe foxy
How about we all sit in this hole together with chocalate cake and coke and blether the day away about nothing in particular. We could put up a huge diversion sign so that everyone walks down a different street (thanks Hope I stole that from one of your posts!) and I am sure we would have a great time! Sorry Brian we have hijaked your post!!
karen
How about we all sit in this hole together with chocalate cake and coke and blether the day away about nothing in particular. We could put up a huge diversion sign so that everyone walks down a different street (thanks Hope I stole that from one of your posts!) and I am sure we would have a great time! Sorry Brian we have hijaked your post!!
karen
#26
ceekay
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- Member
- 1,484 posts
Fallen Angel
Posted 12 May 2006 - 11:23 AM
wow....this thread made me think hard and long. I somehow think that at the moment I feel like the person in that hole and the passer by is no 1. I'm at that stage where I dont want to say hów much I need others to help me, but as soon as I realize it is there I back off and say all is ok. But, I find myself being a mix of no 2 & 3....I always try to be as supportive as possible, but something keeps me from getting to involved. I'm scared of saying the wrong things, or even that my being ''empathetic'' will be seen in a different way as what I meant. (does it make any sense) I actually wish that I never needed to be in that hole, or even had to be the passer by. Why cant we not close that hole and make sure nobody gets trapped in it....things would just be so much easier, or would it? So, anyway, I dont know....
#27
brobbitt
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- Secondary Survivors
- 524 posts
Posted 20 May 2006 - 02:08 AM
Hi, unfortunately life is full of such holes, but we dont have to continue to fall down the same one... Whilst here, or in therapy, you are finding a new direction a new route, recognising that the whole is there and hopefully avoiding it...
I have a client who once every three months or so, binge drinks, the binge drinking leads to depression, but once every three months he still feels the need to binge drink and finds himself down that same hole again :O(
There is an old saying in therapy and that is , 'there is no such thing as bad empathy'... so as long as you are trying to empathise, then you wont go far wrong..Empathy means that you dont have to have the answers for others, (so how can you say something wrong) , but rather trust that they have the answers themselves...your answering empathically means that the person trapped in the hole, may see a little clearer and rthen answers their own questions...if they don't, then you have lost nothing by trying and they are no worse off than they already where, they are already at the bottom of the hole and can't go deeper...
Hope that you are well..
Brian
I have a client who once every three months or so, binge drinks, the binge drinking leads to depression, but once every three months he still feels the need to binge drink and finds himself down that same hole again :O(
There is an old saying in therapy and that is , 'there is no such thing as bad empathy'... so as long as you are trying to empathise, then you wont go far wrong..Empathy means that you dont have to have the answers for others, (so how can you say something wrong) , but rather trust that they have the answers themselves...your answering empathically means that the person trapped in the hole, may see a little clearer and rthen answers their own questions...if they don't, then you have lost nothing by trying and they are no worse off than they already where, they are already at the bottom of the hole and can't go deeper...
Hope that you are well..
Brian
QUOTE(ceekay @ May 12 2006, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
wow....this thread made me think hard and long. I somehow think that at the moment I feel like the person in that hole and the passer by is no 1. I'm at that stage where I dont want to say hów much I need others to help me, but as soon as I realize it is there I back off and say all is ok. But, I find myself being a mix of no 2 & 3....I always try to be as supportive as possible, but something keeps me from getting to involved. I'm scared of saying the wrong things, or even that my being ''empathetic'' will be seen in a different way as what I meant. (does it make any sense) I actually wish that I never needed to be in that hole, or even had to be the passer by. Why cant we not close that hole and make sure nobody gets trapped in it....things would just be so much easier, or would it? So, anyway, I dont know....
#28
brobbitt
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- Secondary Survivors
- 524 posts
Posted 20 May 2006 - 02:23 AM
Hi Foxy,
"How about... it's my hole and nobody is meant to notice me in it !! ..."
I Smiled when I read this... but by being here , on this site, you tell everyone that you are definatley in that hole, and therefore the three different types of people will definately pass and see you..more so if they are or have been stuck in similar holes themselves...:o(
Brian
"How about... it's my hole and nobody is meant to notice me in it !! ..."
I Smiled when I read this... but by being here , on this site, you tell everyone that you are definatley in that hole, and therefore the three different types of people will definately pass and see you..more so if they are or have been stuck in similar holes themselves...:o(
Brian
#29
hanna-catherine
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- Member
- 84 posts
Posted 21 May 2006 - 04:20 AM
what when you see that one in the hole and this brings you so down that you totally don't know what to say. And you really can't help, because the hole is so deep and it is depressing to see that again someone is in there? That you see that one in the whole but that makes you so sad that you are not able to be of help and that you can't help makes you even more sad? Because you feel you actually should help, but you feel not strong enough.
#30
dodo
-
- Newbie Support Team
- 17,378 posts
before the end
Posted 21 May 2006 - 04:38 AM
I think that at times like this then you need to look after yourself. That is the right thing to do, you can't be the carer all the time, some times you have to let yourself be the cared for.
Best wishes to you
karen
Best wishes to you
karen
