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Sexist Remarks

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this is a long thread and i don't have time to read through all the replies, so i'm sorry if this has already been suggested.

i deeply sympathize that these comments can be hurtful to males on the site and they shouldn't have to see that stuff and be triggered by it in a space which is supposed to be safe.

then again, i think it's understandable that some people (both male and female) who were SA'd by males to struggle with these negative views of males. it may inhibit their healing if they have to inhibit expressing these feelings.

so as a compromise, maybe a specific thread in the "aftermath" forum should be reserved for people who feel compelled to vent these types of remarks about males.. then anybody who thinks they might be triggered by such comments would just steer clear of that thread. and on the rest of the forums/threads those remarks would be banned, and posts like that would be moved to the appropriate thread.

perhaps the thread could be called "fear/mistrust of males." it should also be pinned so it doesn't get lost.

on another note... i don't know if comparing the anti-male remarks to racism is an accurate analogy in all cases (depends on what exactly is said). although it's total BS to say that "all men are the same", and this is definately an anti-male statement that is both delusional and offensive, it is reasonable to be more suspicious of males than females, because males commit the vast majority of sexual assault and sexual abuse, and (according to a 1998 scottish research survey) 36% of teen boys and young men said they might rape a woman under certain conditions (i.e. she's his wife, she's a "sl*t", he would get away with it). they also commit 88% of homicides. so statements like "there are tons of awful men out there" or "trusting men is dangerous" or "men are more violent than women" are not really sexist but just a statement about the current reality in our society. it's not an inevitable reality. i don't think males are biologically wired to be more violent than females but are socialized to be more violent. so i love men but i hate masculine gender socialization which teaches men to act like bullies not just to women but to other men. (in fact 2 out of 3 homicide victims are men killed by other men.) so because of the higher rates of male-perpetrated violence towards females and males, i think it's reasonable for people, not just females, to be suspicious and afraid. all of my close male friends have admitted to me that men scare the sh*t out of them. i am actually less scared of men then my boyfriend is, and he's a big dude!

the source for that statistic about the percent of males willing to rape:

Burton, S , Kitzinger, J. with Kelly, L & Regan, L (1998) Young People's Attitudes Toward Violence Sex and Relationships - Executive Summary, Zero Tolerance Charitable Trust. Accessed 28 Oct 2010

<http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/upfiles/young%20peoples%20attitude%2085.pdf>

The problem that started the thread was not people working through fear or mistrust, but the blatantly biased comments that put all males in the same box. Some of the things previously said were very ugly. There is no space for generalizations anywhere on the site as they clearly violate the TOS. I don't think that anyone was saying that people should not be able to hold discussions about their fears or trust issues with certain demographics. Those types of discussions have been and are still occurring without issue.

The problem was, and still is, hurtful and disallowed generalizations. Saying, "I am having trouble feeling safe around X, Y or Z" is one thing. Saying, "all men are potential rapists who are prone to kill others" is quite another. The former was not the issue here, but instead, the latter.

As far as statistics go, they are useful for crunching numbers. However, individuals commit rapes and murders not "men" and "women" in general. Further, for those of us abused by women, it can be pretty invalidating to have such numbers thrown in our faces as justification for hating us.

Edited by jlandrith

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perhaps the thread could be called "fear/mistrust of males." it should also be pinned so it doesn't get lost.

so as a compromise, maybe a specific thread in the "aftermath" forum should be reserved for people who feel compelled to vent these types of remarks about males.. then anybody who thinks they might be triggered by such comments would just steer clear of that thread. and on the rest of the forums/threads those remarks would be banned, and posts like that would be moved to the appropriate thread.

how would you feel if a whole site of male survivors made a thread about "fear/mistrust of females"?

how would you(meaning everyone here) feel if a whole group of people were stereotyping you as a potential perpetrator just because of your gender?

it'd make you feel pretty singled out and terrible, yes?

*rapists* rape. it is NOT a gender specific crime, on the perpetrating side OR the victim/survivor side.

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how would you feel if a whole site of male survivors made a thread about "fear/mistrust of females"?

how would you(meaning everyone here) feel if a whole group of people were stereotyping you as a potential perpetrator just because of your gender?

it'd make you feel pretty singled out and terrible, yes?

*rapists* rape. it is NOT a gender specific crime, on the perpetrating side OR the victim/survivor side.

statistically speaking, it's illogical to be more afraid/mistrustful of females than of males. but most people's fears aren't based on statistical probabilities, they're based on our own experiences. and there are those of us who were abused only by a female(s), or by both a male(s) and a female(s).

i'm sure there are people, male and female, who do deal with fear/mistrust of females. fewer than deal with fear/mistrust of males, but enough that it can warrant its own thread.

so how about two pinned threads. one "fear/mistrust of males" and the other "fear/mistrust of females." i think that's actually reasonable.

Edited by annieonymous

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hmmmmmmmmm. i can kinda see your point, i dont necessarily agree with your reasoning but thats ok. we dont have to agree. thank you for respecting my opinion though, thats very appreciated! :flowers:

so how about two pinned threads. one "fear/mistrust of males" and the other "fear/mistrust of females." i think that's actually reasonable.

i think that *could* be reasonable, i just would want the mods to make sure and watch those threads very carefully because i wouldnt want both of those threads to turn into nothing but "i hate men" and "i hate women" rants when it really should be about working through that fear and mistrust..

does that make sense?

maybe it would be a better idea to make a more general thread about working through fears about certain groups of people in general? i just dont want anyone to feel singled out because thats not fair. and like i said before i think the mods would have to keep a close eye on a thread like that so it doesnt turn into anything but hate speech instead of actually working on that fear/mistrust/etc.

i dont know, im kinda rambling so sorry about that. this is a complicated issue, no easy answers. i just think that its not right to paint any one group of people as potential perpetrators because the thing is, anyone can abuse/assault. like i said before rape/sa is not a gender specific crime and should not be treated like it is.. thats all.

x

Edited by MidnightSunshine531

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Hi

I have read through all that is posted in this thread - and I will make sure other mods take a look at all your suggestions.

karen

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i dont know, im kinda rambling so sorry about that. this is a complicated issue, no easy answers. i just think that its not right to paint any one group of people as potential perpetrators because the thing is, anyone can abuse/assault. like i said before rape/sa is not a gender specific crime and should not be treated like it is.. thats all.

x

Exactly. The statistics being used in this thread to justify fear based on gender can also be used to refute those same fears. While the majority of reported rapes have been committed by men, the vast majority of men statistically have not committed any rapes or assaults, so the argument that they should be feared falls flat on its face when presented from that angle. Hmmm, I wonder why those stats are never quoted. Could it be that they don't support the fear argument?

Further, a Kaiser Permanente study shows that for men abused as children, 40% of the perps were women, and a recent study in Scotland showed a massive rise in reporting by males with regard to domestic violence committed by females. I wonder what kind of justifications could be made based on those stats. Also, given how unwilling most men have been to report abuse - and especially so at the hands of women, the real numbers are undoubtedly much higher. In addition, the fact that most states are only now beginning to seriously charge and prosecute female rapists and pedophiles, I have a suspicion that the stats are going to even up with regard to the gender of perps in the coming years. Do not be confused, women are not committing sexual and domestic violence at higher rates than ever, they are just finally being held accountable to it and law enforcement/advocacy groups are finally taking it seriously.

I wrote about this on my blog and it was republished recently on the feminist blog ethecofem:

We can use numbers to say a lot things. Why does it always seem that excusing bias, bigotry and fear seems to be the fallback though?

Edited by jlandrith

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Exactly. The statistics being used in this thread to justify fear based on gender can also be used to refute those same fears. While the majority of reported rapes have been committed by men, the vast majority of men statistically have not committed any rapes or assaults, so the argument that they should be feared falls flat on its face when presented from that angle. Hmmm, I wonder why those stats are never quoted. Could it be that they don't support the fear argument?

i agree that most males are not rapists or abusers or murderers. i was just saying they're much more likely to be rapists and abusers, and murderers, than females. so it's not unreasonable for females and for males to be more cautious of males relative to females.

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Exactly. The statistics being used in this thread to justify fear based on gender can also be used to refute those same fears. While the majority of reported rapes have been committed by men, the vast majority of men statistically have not committed any rapes or assaults, so the argument that they should be feared falls flat on its face when presented from that angle. Hmmm, I wonder why those stats are never quoted. Could it be that they don't support the fear argument?

i agree that most males are not rapists or abusers or murderers. i was just saying they're much more likely to be rapists and abusers, and murderers, than females. so it's not unreasonable for females and for males to be more cautious of males relative to females.

More likely based on some forms of statistical collection. However, given that the vast majority of violence committed by women against men is not prosecuted, let alone reported, you might find the real amount of female perpetrated violence to be closer to the levels of male perpetrated violence. I know far too many men and women who were hurt by women to support the argument that men should be feared based on statistics. Further, some agencies will call a sexual assault committed by a man - rape, while calling the same act committed by a woman - sexual assault or indecent liberties or another term that clearly downplays the seriousness of the crime and pads the numbers to ensure that women are not appropriately represented in the numbers. Some law enforcement organizations and advocacy agencies openly admit that they don't consider women capable of rape and that only men can be rapists. Gee, what effect do you think such biases have on the accuracy and integrity of the data from which your statistics derive?

Statistics, like any form of number crunching, are susceptible to human and institutional bias. The bias toward reclassifying rapes committed by women is well known, but changing due to vocal opposition by male and female survivors of female predators. With regard to domestic violence, agencies are beginning to do a much better of job of classifying female violence equally with that of men, rather than systemically reclassifying it based on political expediency.

Just as easily as you conclude that it is reasonable to fear men more than women, one could make the claim that since statistics show that the overwhelmingly vast majority of men are not rapists, that it is unreasonable to be afraid of men on that basis.

See how easy it is to use the similar statistics to support both sides of a point?

Given that statistics ultimately show that it is rapists who commit rape - not whole classifications of gender, I fear rapists, rather than whole segments of society who happen to be innocent of rape.

Of course, given that more and more women are being convicted of raping men (like me) and sexually abusing children, committing statutory rapes in schools/churches and perpetuating domestic violence, perhaps I should rethink my abhorrence of bias and scapegoating...

Edited by jlandrith

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Many times I don't even know who are male and female here because we can't see gender. I know of a few males and I really value their input and encouragement in the group. They are great members and I hope they always feel comfortable here.

I think when victims make sexist comments it's because they are angry or scared, but mainly trying to protect themselves. It isn't healthy, and we should all feel encouraged to help that person heal and realize their sexism is holding them back from regaining a positive outlook on life.

:flowers:

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Many times I don't even know who are male and female here because we can't see gender. I know of a few males and I really value their input and encouragement in the group. They are great members and I hope they always feel comfortable here.

As I am further along in my healing, I can understand many of the sexist comments and have empathy for those making them. However, as a survivor of a female rapist I have problems with being lumped into the "perp" box by people who share the same gender as my own rapist. I know that some people may not understand how I can empathize while simultaneously feeling invalidated or accused on the basis of gender, but I think that most survivors here can understand why it would be problematic. It may be harder for those in the majority here to understand it, but I do know that many try and that means a great deal.

I won't lie, sexist remarks are very hurtful - especially given that they tend to come from those who share the same gender as my own rapist. I understand it, but I don't have to condone it as I know it would not be condoned openly if the genders were switched.

I think when victims make sexist comments it's because they are angry or scared, but mainly trying to protect themselves. It isn't healthy, and we should all feel encouraged to help that person heal and realize their sexism is holding them back from regaining a positive outlook on life.

:flowers:

That is exactly how I see it. Recognize the underlying cause, gently point it out as a symptom and help the survivor to transcend the sexism. Let's not use statistical games to justify sexism and further wound other survivors as if they are guilty by association. Instead, let's help the survivors know that sexism can be overcome, rather than excusing it on the basis of shared gender.

Edited by jlandrith

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Many times I don't even know who are male and female here because we can't see gender. I know of a few males and I really value their input and encouragement in the group. They are great members and I hope they always feel comfortable here.

As I am further along in my healing, I can understand many of the sexist comments and have empathy for those making them. However, as a survivor of a female rapist I have problems with being lumped into the "perp" box by people who share the same gender as my own rapist. I know that some people may not understand how I can empathize while simultaneously feeling invalidated or accused on the basis of gender, but I think that most survivors here can understand why it would be problematic. It may be harder for those in the majority here to understand it, but I do know that many try and that means a great deal.

I won't lie, sexist remarks are very hurtful - especially given that they tend to come from those who share the same gender as my own rapist. I understand it, but I don't have to condone it as I know it would not be condoned openly if the genders were switched.

I think when victims make sexist comments it's because they are angry or scared, but mainly trying to protect themselves. It isn't healthy, and we should all feel encouraged to help that person heal and realize their sexism is holding them back from regaining a positive outlook on life.

:flowers:

That is exactly how I see it. Recognize the underlying cause, gently point it out as a symptom and help the survivor to transcend the sexism. Let's not use statistical games to justify sexism and further wound other survivors as if they are guilty by association. Instead, let's help the survivors know that sexism can be overcome, rather than excusing it on the basis of shared gender.

I am glad that you feel comfortable expressing your feelings instead of getting angry or running away from the situation. I can understand where you are coming from when you explain it all.

My abuser was sexist. It was a male, and he said and did many sexist things.. even my therapist said he is "misogynistic." I am not sure if it was his background, his culture, his up bringing. IDK. I know sexism hurts, and I know all sexist males are not rapists. But I don't think I am sexist as a result of what he did. I understand how sexism hurts people. I have experienced it myself a few times in life, and it made me feel so invalidated and misunderstood.

I think the people who are sexist are just really scared and have never been treated well by the opposite sex... but by the same coin, they may not be giving the opposite sex a fair chance to treat them well. It is a very difficult area of abuse, but I think we agree that it is a symptom of fear, mistrust, and PTSD. It's not a positive view to take into the world and it's preventing healing for them and others here.

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I think the people who are sexist are just really scared and have never been treated well by the opposite sex... but by the same coin, they may not be giving the opposite sex a fair chance to treat them well. It is a very difficult area of abuse, but I think we agree that it is a symptom of fear, mistrust, and PTSD. It's not a positive view to take into the world and it's preventing healing for them and others here.

Well said!

This is me. I never have been treatd well by the opposite sex, I think my sexism just come out as anger and hypervigilance too.

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This is me. I never have been treatd well by the opposite sex, I think my sexism just come out as anger and hypervigilance too.

I like how you put this - and I can relate. After being raped by a woman, I tended toward abusive and manipulative women, which only compounded the problem. It can sometimes take a great deal of effort to trust and not automatically assume the worst. The healing work is day to day. (sigh)

Edited by jlandrith

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In reply to some recent comments - the thread was started to bring attention to the fact that it is not okay to say that you hate all men (or women!) on this site. Not about mistrust. It was about people who were saying that all men are the same. Saying all men are rapists is as bad as saying all women are sluts or all muslims are terrorists. It is totally ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, the sexist comments are as bad as racist comments - bunching people together who have something in common that they can't control, based on the actions of some people from the same demographic.

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i'm so sorry. you're definitely right. men AREN'T all the same.

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Saying all men are rapists is as bad as saying all women are sluts or all muslims are terrorists. It is totally ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, the sexist comments are as bad as racist comments - bunching people together who have something in common that they can't control, based on the actions of some people from the same demographic.

exactly. well said! :flowers:

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More likely based on some forms of statistical collection. However, given that the vast majority of violence committed by women against men is not prosecuted, let alone reported, you might find the real amount of female perpetrated violence to be closer to the levels of male perpetrated violence.

[...]

Statistics, like any form of number crunching, are susceptible to human and institutional bias.

you are very right that we have to be cautious regarding statistics of rapes, sexual assault, and violence, and what the sex ratio is of the victims and of the perpetrators. there can be problems in the reporting, or in the way the questions are presented, or in not admitting to things due to societal stigma or minimization (for instance, the minimization of rape and sexual assault perpetrated by a female).

however, statistics about murders are very reliable, because almost all murders are discovered and reported (unlike most assault, rapes, etc.) and almost all of the reported murders are solved (the perpetrator is found and convicted). there is still a margin of error (sometimes innocent people get convicted), but of all the data on violence, homicide stats are by far the most reliable. of all single-perpetrator homicides that were solved between 1976 and 2005, 88% of the perpetrators were male. if males are committing 88% of the murders, it isn't unreasonable to extrapolate that they are committing most of the non-fatal violence, too.

the perpetration of violence is committed by males and females, but more often males, and i don't think this is an insignificant or unimportant fact. we have to ask ourselves why there are more violent males than violent females. the answer, to put it briefly, is their gender socialization. no, i'm not going to blame it on their biology. if i did, then i'd be a sexist. males are born innocent like anyone else. but their gender socialization does serious damage to them, which i think is a tragedy. most males do not become abusers. but most of them are wounded by masculinity. it forces them into compulsory toughness, into repressing and feeling ashamed of their tender emotions, into feeling ashamed of anything about themself that is soft or 'weak', into a walled off way of relating to others that blocks them from achieving true intimacy.

as a society, we must abolish gender, masculinity AND femininity, so that females and males can both enjoy the fullness of their humanity (rather than both being half humans). this is crucial for reducing the level of violence on this planet. but unless we take a critical look at masculinity, at the damage that it does to males, and at the way that it influences some males to be violent and abusive towards others - unless we do all this, we will not be motivated to abolish gender. (note that gender is not sex; there will still be males and females, just not masculinity and femininity.)

that's why i keep harping on this issue. if we stay in denial that males commit more violence than females, we will stay in denial that masculinity is a problem, and we will stay in denial about the need to abolish gender, which means we will not address one of the major root causes of violence and abuse.

so it is my desire to make sure society wakes up to and addresses one of the root causes of violence that motivates me to keep emphasizing this sex ratio disparity in violence perpetration. i have no ax to grind with males; i just want there to be less violence perpetrated against both females and males, and i want males to be free of the pain that their gender socialization inflicts on them.

males have NO NEED to feel ashamed of their maleness just because most violence is committed by males. it's nothing inherent about being male that makes this so. it's gender socialization, which is a form of brainwashing. on a biological level, males are not innately violent, and maleness itself is nothing to be ashamed of.

Edited by annieonymous

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however, statistics about murders are very reliable, because almost all murders are discovered and reported (unlike most assault, rapes, etc.) and almost all of the reported murders are solved (the perpetrator is found and convicted). there is still a margin of error (sometimes innocent people get convicted), but of all the data on violence, homicide stats are by far the most reliable. of all single-perpetrator homicides that were solved between 1976 and 2005, 88% of the perpetrators were male. if males are committing 88% of the murders, it isn't unreasonable to extrapolate that they are committing most of the non-fatal violence, too.

the perpetration of violence is committed by males and females, but more often males, and i don't think this is an insignificant or unimportant fact. we have to ask ourselves why there are more violent males than violent females. the answer, to put it briefly, is their gender socialization. no, i'm not going to blame it on their biology. if i did, then i'd be a sexist. males are born innocent like anyone else. but their gender socialization does serious damage to them, which i think is a tragedy. most males do not become abusers. but most of them are wounded by masculinity. it forces them into compulsory toughness, into repressing and feeling ashamed of their tender emotions, into feeling ashamed of anything about themself that is soft or 'weak', into a walled off way of relating to others that blocks them from achieving true intimacy.

as a society, we must abolish gender, masculinity AND femininity, so that females and males can both enjoy the fullness of their humanity (rather than both being half humans). this is crucial for reducing the level of violence on this planet. but before we will be motivated to do this, we must first take a critical look at masculinity, to the damage that it does to males, and to the way that it influences some males to be violent and abusive towards others.

that's why i keep harping on this issue. if we stay in denial that males commit more violence than females, we will stay in denial that masculinity is a problem, and we will stay in denial about the need to abolish gender, which means we will not address one of the major root causes of violence and abuse. (note that gender is not sex; there will still be males and females, just not masculinity and femininity.)

males have NO NEED to feel ashamed of their maleness just because most violence is committed by males. it's nothing inherent about being male that makes this so. it's gender socialization, which is a form of brainwashing. on a biological level, males are not innately violent, and maleness itself is nothing to be ashamed of.

Rape and murder are two separate issues, as I am sure you understand. Perhaps I was confused, but I thought this thread was about avoiding generalizations about men and rape.

Also, given that SOME women, just like SOME men commit murder too, I would think that would justify fear of women as well - who commit their own murders or use men to do the work for them, often generating lighter sentences when charged at all. Statistics don't commit violence, individuals do. Again, since most men do not commit such violence, then fear of men on that basis is clearly unreasonable, and your points, which I understand and are not new theories to me - completely miss the point of this thread and the rules of this forum with regard to generalizations, even if thinly veiled by subjective statistics. Individual females and males have both been convicted of murder, even if more women do receive lighter sentences (a trend that has recently begun to correct), skewing the numbers which you keep presenting.

Also, with regard to murder statistics, given that I have more than one family member who was murdered I don't look at murder as a statistic to use casually for the purpose of supporting barely veiled generalizations that clearly violate the TOS of this forum and the reason for this thread - which was started by a staff member regarding generalizations about men. The implication about being in denial is offensive on a level you could not possibly understand unless you lived through the nightmare of hearing over the car radio that a family member (and semi-public figure at the time) had just been murdered. Seeing family members fall apart slowly over a several year period and the news circus that followed gives me a perspective far beyond callous quoting of numbers for political points and in defiance of the stated purpose of this thread.

I look at it as a personal issue that permanently changed my family and has caused very deep scars that exist to this day. I take this issue very seriously and have real problems with it being used to score points in unnecessary gender wars that have no place in what is supposed to be a healing space for ALL survivors of sexual violence.

You wanna talk murder? We can talk murder, but it won't be about numbers that prove only who was arrested and convicted (not necessarily all or any of the guilty parties to each murder) and it won't be for the purpose of sowing fear among the women of this forum. That clearly fails the purpose of this thread in a major way that I shouldn't have to keep pointing out.

Edited by jlandrith

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Saying all men are rapists is as bad as saying all women are sluts or all muslims are terrorists. It is totally ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, the sexist comments are as bad as racist comments - bunching people together who have something in common that they can't control, based on the actions of some people from the same demographic.

exactly. well said! :flowers:

Seconded.

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In reply to some recent comments - the thread was started to bring attention to the fact that it is not okay to say that you hate all men (or women!) on this site. Not about mistrust. It was about people who were saying that all men are the same. Saying all men are rapists is as bad as saying all women are sluts or all muslims are terrorists. It is totally ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, the sexist comments are as bad as racist comments - bunching people together who have something in common that they can't control, based on the actions of some people from the same demographic.

That was my understanding as well, but it seems to have been turned into a "who is worse" argument that ignores the clear intent of the thread while continuing to subtly promote generalizations. Can we just not do it and save the political points for blogs and commentaries outside of healing spaces?

Ugh.

Edited by jlandrith

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That was my understanding as well, but it seems to have been turned into a "who is worse" argument that ignores the clear intent of the thread while continuing to subtly promote generalizations. Can we just not do it and save the political points for blogs and commentaries outside of healing spaces?

Ugh.

so, i've actually been quite proud of myself for staying out of this discussion bc i really dont like to come on here to argue with anybody, and these discussions seem to always somehow progress into open hostility.

but i think i really need to comment on this statement because i find it unfair.

i assume it is directed towards annie?

well, i just have to say that i dont find her sexist. i do not agree that she is "promoting sexism" or violating terms of service, as you have been accusing her! i actually find it unfair to throw such accusations into someone's face who clearly takes a different approach to looking at this whole issue than you do, which is her right. cause not everybody has to look at the world the way you do.

from what i understand, you, james, say that sexual violence is committed by individuals who obviously all have a gender, but they also have hair colors and body types and what not, and since gender is not a causal factor (people dont commit sexual violence because they are male or female or blonde or whatever), it should not be considered relevant. it's valid to have this perspective.

but really.... calling someone sexist simply because she quotes (and even provides sources for) research studies that look at the whole GROUP of sex offenders (and explicitly NOT at individuals, so it's simply very different from what you choose to do, but just as valid).... well, this is just something i really disagree with.

you can doubt the validity of the findings, of course. it would be more convincing to me personally if these doubts were not hypothetical or supposedly "self-evident" but if you or anybody else actually looked at the individual studies and pointed out precise methodological concerns. (which i am sure has been done, and usually is done even by the authors themselves. maybe just start reading the discussion sections of these studies and see how many of your concerns are addressed right there. i dont know, i have not read any of those studies yet, but i do intend to.)

and i find that the "all statistics lie anyway" argument is a very poor one. of course they dont tell the Absolute Truth, but really.... they usually dont claim to!!!!

for the record: annie was not saying that all men are rapists or that all muslims are terrorists. :duh: and people kinda make it sound like she did. and i really dont like that.

i find it very scary indeed when i see sth like....... hmm..... a general "consensus" among a number of posters that goes kind of like "WE say xxyyyzzzz, which obviously means that WE are the good guys here!!!" who are then pointing fingers at somebody else who has a different approach to the topic, but who, in this case, is NOT saying that only men rape or that all men rape, who is NOT "promoting" any kinds of generalizations (as if she were following a hidden agenda or sth! :duh: ), and who is NOT mean, evil, or anything like that, either!!!

maybe you can re-read what she is saying. i really dont find her offensive. but i find your responses to her offensive. which is why i felt the need to say sth.

other than that...... like i said, i really dont want to argue with anybody. and i really think i'll stay out of this discussion - again - from now on. i probably should not even come here to read. :-/

:shrug:

sigh.

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That was my understanding as well, but it seems to have been turned into a "who is worse" argument that ignores the clear intent of the thread while continuing to subtly promote generalizations. Can we just not do it and save the political points for blogs and commentaries outside of healing spaces?

Ugh.

so, i've actually been quite proud of myself for staying out of this discussion bc i really dont like to come on here to argue with anybody, and these discussions seem to always somehow progress into open hostility.

but i think i really need to comment on this statement because i find it unfair.

i assume it is directed towards annie?

Yes, it is, you are correct.

well, i just have to say that i dont find her sexist. i do not agree that she is "promoting sexism" or violating terms of service, as you have been accusing her! i actually find it unfair to throw such accusations into someone's face who clearly takes a different approach to looking at this whole issue than you do, which is her right. cause not everybody has to look at the world the way you do.

This thread is clearly about not promoting generalizations and Annie is very clearly defending generalizations throught the repeated use of statistics that paint men as inherently more violent than women. Why is that necessary on a thread that exists for the opposite purpose?

from what i understand, you, james, say that sexual violence is committed by individuals who obviously all have a gender, but they also have hair colors and body types and what not, and since gender is not a causal factor (people dont commit sexual violence because they are male or female or blonde or whatever), it should not be considered relevant. it's valid to have this perspective.

Yes, that is what I have been saying and it is the point of this thread - avoid gender based generalizations.

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but really.... calling someone sexist simply because she quotes (and even provides sources for) research studies that look at the whole GROUP of sex offenders (and explicitly NOT at individuals, so it's simply very different from what you choose to do, but just as valid).... well, this is just something i really disagree with.

I didn't call her sexist - anywhere. I take issue with her tactics. You have manufactured that one out of thin air. Please retract it or substantiate it.

Actually, what she has done is say generalizations are not valid in one paragraph while then defending them with stastiics later in the same post - repeatedly. It is not as innocent as you seem to be claiming and clearly runs completely counter to the point of this thread. That should be obvious. You may not see it that way, but it is quite clear, else why keep using the unrelated statistics in a thread opposed to generalizations?

you can doubt the validity of the findings, of course. it would be more convincing to me personally if these doubts were not hypothetical or supposedly "self-evident" but if you or anybody else actually looked at the individual studies and pointed out precise methodological concerns. (which i am sure has been done, and usually is done even by the authors themselves. maybe just start reading the discussion sections of these studies and see how many of your concerns are addressed right there. i dont know, i have not read any of those studies yet, but i do intend to.)

I've got several years of dealing with stats and I understand that collection methods, shifting/expedient definitions and other factors make most data collections an apples to oranges comparison between data tables that have been cobbled together from multiple sources. Further, such data is also affected by the politics of the area, organization, legal restrictions and biases of those collecting the data, etc.

and i find that the "all statistics lie anyway" argument is a very poor one. of course they dont tell the Absolute Truth, but really.... they usually dont claim to!!!!

Cute, but I didn't say all statistics lie, nor did I say they "claim to" with 1,2,3 and 4 very awesome exclamation points. I pointed out - AND SHE AGREED WITH ME - that the stats on sexual violence are known for being inaccurate and biased due to the chaotic manner and inconsistent methodologies and over biases involved. What you just presented is a strawman. It is now blowing in the wind.

So, again, why are statistics relevent to a thread about avoiding generalizations, if not to support the same generalizaitons - which is the repeated point she has been making - men are more violent than women so people should be more afraid of men. She has said variations of this repeatedly.

Edited by jlandrith

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for the record: annie was not saying that all men are rapists or that all muslims are terrorists. :duh: and people kinda make it sound like she did. and i really dont like that.

And yet, she is here defending generalizations by repeatedly hammering home the point that she believes men are more violent than women - in a thread clearly started to ask posters to NOT make generalizations for any reason. Perhaps that is is something that has confused you about this conversation.

i find it very scary indeed when i see sth like....... hmm..... a general "consensus" among a number of posters that goes kind of like "WE say xxyyyzzzz, which obviously means that WE are the good guys here!!!" who are then pointing fingers at somebody else who has a different approach to the topic, but who, in this case, is NOT saying that only men rape or that all men rape, who is NOT "promoting" any kinds of generalizations (as if she were following a hidden agenda or sth! :duh: ), and who is NOT mean, evil, or anything like that, either!!!

I find generalizations scary and unnecessary. This thread is about avoiding them and the statistics arguments is clearly a subtle way of defending them by claiming them to based in fact. :duh:

maybe you can re-read what she is saying. i really dont find her offensive. but i find your responses to her offensive. which is why i felt the need to say sth.

I find the repeated need to claim that men are more violent than women in a thread about avoiding generalizations to be quite offensive. Clearly, you do not. That is your right. I'm personally offended myself now at your defense of what she is clearly doing in this thread - which runs completely counter to purppose.

other than that...... like i said, i really dont want to argue with anybody. and i really think i'll stay out of this discussion - again - from now on. i probably should not even come here to read. :-/

I'm not sure how that works, given you just defended her and find disagreement with her offensive. I find using a thread dedicated to fighting generalizations as a platform to basically say, in veiled terms that generalizations are supported by statistics to be very, very offensive. But then, you are offended by the fact that I took offense so this is all just pointless at the stage anyway.

It is pointless given you clearly need to take your own advice and re-read what I said.

I give up. Men are more violent than women. This is what she has said in several variations and what you are now defending in a thread about not making generalizations while telling those offended by generalizations that their offense offends you.

What a mess. I give up. Everyone keep making generalizations all you want. I'm done here.

:shrug:

sigh.

indeed

Edited by jlandrith

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The simple biology of our species and the differences between our genders has lead to individuals exhibiting violence in different ways. Men are biologically more physically strong there for they tend to exhibit violence in that manner. Women are more socially aware. Therefor they tend to exhibit violence in that manner. Simple biological facts. There are exceptions. As with everything. All members of are species are capable of, and routinely commit, horrendous acts of violence. There are socioeconomic factors. There are cultural factors. And yes, in the minutia there are gender factors. But the fact still remains that we're all pretty crappy to each other in our own special ways.

There would be far greater strides made in preventing and dealing with these violent acts if we can throw out the factors and deal with the natural biological facts and treat the issue as what it is; violence. It's not a female issue. It's not a male issue. It's a violence issue.

Out.

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